Field Test #1 Follow-Up Changes

Just wanted to post a few changes that we're gonna test internally as a result of feedback we're seeing from the first Field Test.

General Changes

-Changed Capacity to Magazine. Updated text so that it reference magazines now. Removed ambiguity about reloading (you don't reload per shot in SF2, you just reload the magazine).

-Removed Resistance from Archaic equipment. Will re-add as optional Gamemastery Rule. This was something we saw a lot of internal division on, and threw out to see how folks would react. Seeing reactions, we're edging more towards making this an optional rule, which is how we'll treat it for now. There's still potential we bring this back but add a "non-magical archaic" so that a runed-up weapon doesn't take this penalty.

-Confirmed Area Fire consumes the same amount of ammo as a ranged Strike with the weapon would. Just a wording tweak we needed to add anyways.

Soldier

-Now just an Expert in Will instead of the weird one Expert in saves, dropped Bravado as a class ability.

-Increased Suppressed condition speed penalty to -10 feet.

-Suppressing Fire specifies it only suppresses enemies.

-Primary Target is now a shot IN ADDITION when making an AoE attack. This honestly just feels like it resolves some of our "Single target DPS" issues with the class that we noticed, and makes the ability way more usable. It also really makes Soldiers the class that benefit most from AoE weapons.

-Punishing Salvo is now just a ranged Strike that follows up an Area Fire for 1 action, not using Area Fire rules.

-Quick-Swap now specifies "enemy" in the trigger.

Thank you for the update! For clarification, is Bravado the Fearsome Bulwark feature listed in the PDF?

This is all very exciting.

I can enjoy most of these changes. I definitely think that the non-magical archaic (maybe even non-striking) is the way to go. It feels the right option for the core vibe of the game to maintain that science-fantasy vibe when crossing over into fantasy realms. As is, making it optional will end us in the same scenario as SF1e - Archaic being forgotten about entirely outside of the one AP its referenced in. I think it needs to be a standard rule (just maybe ignored in the field test because there's not enough to compare it against yet, since you're comparing it with existing PF chaff at low levels)

Seems like a lot of pretty solid changes! I particularly like the potential move to at least non-magic archaic. The current method seems like a lot of work to throw out if you just have to go back and reinvent weapons for all the same niches. I think futuristic tech could be better differentiated with traits, critical specs, and special abilities.

That helps! Any plan for reconciling field test "usage" with pathfinder "usage"?

That helps! Any plan for reconciling field test "usage" with pathfinder "usage"?

That is one we're still discussing! A few options present themselves... we'll be investigating it. The biggest thing here is coming up with a term that people will immediately grok and get "Oh this is what expends ammo" and also is table-friendly. (Magazine is cool because we can abbreviate it to Mag for tables).

Really glad to see changes being implemented this early on the process! Makes me all the more excited for the future of Starfinder! By chance though, are there any plans on making the item system more closely match that of PF2e? I know it’s a popular sentiment in Starfinder to keep the weapon you started with and upgrade it over time, but in the Field Test it seems like you might not be able to do that with every weapon.

Loving the changes so far, Thurston!

Thank you for the update! For clarification, is Bravado the Fearsome Bulwark feature listed in the PDF?

I'd also like to see a clarification on this if we could, please!

Thanks for the update. I really like the change of a soldier getting to ranged Strike as well as use their weapon's area feature. It takes some of the sting out of the slightly reduced accuracy if you're getting a free Strike along with the thing you want to be doing anyway, shooting big boom guns.

Really glad to see changes being implemented this early on the process! Makes me all the more excited for the future of Starfinder! By chance though, are there any plans on making the item system more closely match that of PF2e? I know it’s a popular sentiment in Starfinder to keep the weapon you started with and upgrade it over time, but in the Field Test it seems like you might not be able to do that with every weapon.

We kind of address it in the text of the Field Test, but there will be options for people to upgrade "Granny's pistol" throughout the whole of a campaign. That's super important to us. If anything, the scaling system we have (and the fact that we use a standardized naming convention for that scaling) makes it way easier for us to accomplish that!

I really like that speed penalty increase, makes you a much more juicy target for melee dudes, and helps stop the ranged enemies move to get around cover.

-Suppressing Fire specifies it only suppresses enemies.

really helps allies get away from bad melee match-ups.

Loving the changes so far, Thurston!

Teridax wrote:

Thank you for the update! For clarification, is Bravado the Fearsome Bulwark feature listed in the PDF?

I'd also like to see a clarification on this if we could, please!

Yeah, i would also like some clarification. I don’t believe there’s an ability named “Bravado” in Field Test 1

Soldier

-Now just an Expert in Will instead of the weird one Expert in saves, dropped Bravado as a class ability.

Oh hm, I'm confused by the word "just" in that sentence. Since the Field Test #1 solider draft was only expert in a single save (Fort), I take it that the change is to make soldier now start expert in two saves (Fort and Will)?

Bravado sounds like probably a class feature around 7th level or so that increased Will proficiency from trained to expert, I assume.

Great to see some Pre test pre changes and how its changing in developement on the Soldier.

Will the Field test be updated by chance?

Thanks

Tom

-Removed Resistance from Archaic equipment. Will re-add as optional Gamemastery Rule. This was something we saw a lot of internal division on, and threw out to see how folks would react. Seeing reactions, we're edging more towards making this an optional rule, which is how we'll treat it for now. There's still potential we bring this back but add a "non-magical archaic" so that a runed-up weapon doesn't take this penalty.

This could possibly still allow for some armor to have resistance against Archaic or non-magical archaic equipment. also, the level of magic could factor into the resistance too, such as resistance to magical archaic 1

Thank you for the update! For clarification, is Bravado the Fearsome Bulwark feature listed in the PDF?

OOPS! Silliness of referencing some of our internal documents (which apparently are even more up to date than the playtest documents)

Bravado was an ability we had for improving the Will save to Expert.

Also, for those asking, we'll NOT be updating the Field Tests. The time it takes to make these is already a diversion from getting the product done, upkeeping them isn't really in the cards as we aren't even at the official playtest stage yet! :)

The weird bit for me on the "archaic weapons" rules is... what about natural weapons? Like, I'm figuring that you're going to want to have at least a few Starfinder ancestries (and possibly even classes) that get claw/bite/etc. Giving those a massive debuff feels punitive. On the flip side, making them more effective than a traditionally forged sword or whatever feels... weird. Not sure what to do about it, but I feel like it's a potentially useful place to try to pry open the "how do I treat archaics" question.

How long does it take to reload an empty magazine?

I kinda liked runes being archaic too but yeah non magical archaic having the penalty is probably better to make it feel like future armor/weapons do have improved since past times

I could see it becoming, instead of flat resistance value, making it become 2 + 1/2 the level of the armor item, or level of the beast if natural armor. Makes it relevant, but not giant impact at lower levels. I think the comment/concern about natural weapons is very relevant and should be considered carefully.

While making runes bypass it simplifies thing significantly, it also makes it lose some flavor though as well, which shouldn’t be ignored. Have to measure how much you lose vs how much it complicates things.

If we do have runes bypass the resistance do they bypass all and what runes do it. Does it have to be striking, or are potency runes enough. Does higher level armor require stronger runes to bypass archaic resistance if they reinstate it.

How long does it take to reload an empty magazine?

The reload number of actions.

Ed Reppert wrote:

How long does it take to reload an empty magazine?

The reload number of actions.

For PF2 Repeating weapons it would take 3 actions to load a new magazine. For example, the Repeating Crossbow or Air Repeater. And nowhere does it say how long it takes to refill the magazine itself.

For SF2 with the majority of ranged weapons having magazines instead of being loaded with individual rounds, I would expect that the weapon itself would list how many actions it takes to load a magazine.

And maybe it will list how much time it takes to refill a magazine.

IME it takes a lot longer to put ten or twenty rounds into a magazine than it takes to remove the empty magazine from the gun, pull a new magazine out of the pouch and put it in the gun. Long enough, in fact, that I would not expect it to be something that can be done in three actions.

I think "putting rounds into the magazine" is something you're only going to be able to do outside of combat, if at all (like some of these "magazines" are going to be batteries).

But the way it works in PF2 is that you need 3 interact actions to change a magazine: one to remove it, one to pull the new magazine from wherever it is, one to load it. I wonder if that's going to change what with "guns are the assumption."

I don't see why it would.

I could see giving a one-action discount for ejecting the magazine since "dropping a weapon" is free and you could design the tech guns to eject when you press a button.

All of the weapons in the Field Test have Reload 1. So they take 1 action to reload.

The Soldier also has a feat for one action for two Reloads as long as you've fired a Reload 2 weapon just before.

I think this will need to be clarified for the actual playtest, since there is a weapon in PF2 that fires from a magazine *and* you have to reload per shot: The Repeating Heavy Crossbow.

I'm not sure it makes sense to have different weapons have different reload numbers when all you're doing is swapping out the magazine so that entire column is superfluous.

If the intention is "the next shot is automatically chambered, you just reload the magazine" the analogy would be the PF2 Air Repeater which is a reload 0 weapon, it just takes 3 actions to change the magazine. Though the "3 actions to change the mag" is enforced by the Repeating trait, so probably "it takes a number of actions equal to the reload value of the weapon to change the magazine" could just be encoded in a different trait? Still, there's a weird asymmetry here as the reload value means different things in different games.

Like it's clear how this is supposed to work, but the rules language needs tightening up.

-Changed Capacity to Magazine. Updated text so that it reference magazines now. Removed ambiguity about reloading (you don't reload per shot in SF2, you just reload the magazine).

Yup, Thurston already said so in this very thread! XD

But Reload 2 is at least confirmed to have mechanics working for it. I imagine that would be for big heavy weapons with a more complicated reloading process.

Given that triple ripple rockets is one of the reasons they don't want no action cost for Skittermanders using all six arms freely, I'd bet rocket/missile weapons will have reload 2.

Maybe, though I bet Rocket Launchers have Area Blast 2 action activity to fire like the Stellar Cannon, so who knows what the design space is gonna be like.