magic item crafting

I have a couple of not particularly related questions:

1) since magic item crafting takes (usually) 8 hrs, can spells that modify skill checks with durations less than 8 hrs (or however long the crafting is taking that day) change the results?
(for purposes of this question I'm not really concerned with the retro-active inspiration spells timely and gallant inspiration) but more like spells like tears to wine etc.

2) is there any guidance for determining the caster level of a wondrous magic item to be crafted when creating a custom item or when a caster level is not listed (such as for Leshy mulch manual or Spartoi seeds (both of which simply say "varies"

1. as the skill check represent the total work done for the item (after it is supposed to be completed, not like mundane crafting which is once a week) and show how well one have done during ALL of the time he crafted the item. he didn't just made the item in the last 10 minutes of crafting, every 1000 gp of base price is 8 hours of daily work. so an item with base price of 4,000 like a belt +2 str takes 4 days (if not hasting with higher dc). you can't just slap a buff in the last moment when the check is rolled and say this helped ALL the crafting done till now...

so no. the buff must last the entire time the item was crafted -or been cast many times during it (like having a cleric cast guidance every minute ).

2. yep. the crafter can craft the item (after gm approve of it, remember any custom item must be GM approved!) using his own caster level or lower but only as low as the spells used to make it can allow it to be. (so an item that uses ,say a level 5 spell, can't have caster level of less then 9). remember the caster level effect the item's cost(and crafting dc and time to make)

for question 2, I was asking for guidance from 1st party sources for how to assess caster level - I used source items like the leshy manual to show that even paizo fails to specify or explain themselves. (the minimum rule you mentioned does seem like something I've read before - but paizo violates it frequently: headband of deathless devotion or Headband of ninjitsu - this is just cl 1 headband items - many more examples exist (of course that doesn't exclude your rule of thumb)..... i was really looking for a reference paragraph or something similar

for question 1, I understand the principle of needing the bonus for the entire duration of the task for which the check is made....I worded Q1 poorly. I should have worded it thusly:

are there any spells that can modify spellcraft checks, given that they usually need to provide a bonus for 8 hours per day (or work some other type of magic like the retro-active inspiration spells)?

visualization of the mind is the only other one I could initially come up with so any other spells or strategy would be helpful

Tears to wine is my group's goto buff for all int and wis skills.

On the Game in general:
The Game is not uniformly consistent nor is it a technical manual. It is written in conversational descriptive english towards middle/high school reading levels. It has a consistent lack of technical writing and mathematical formula though they pay attention to paragraph structure, descending topics, punctuation, forms/format, and some keywords. Essentially(legal terms) it is a Work of Art.

Secondly, Rules as Written(RAW) is what it is. A GM is necessary to iron out the inconsistencies and interpret what they think is sensible and fair in the Game.
In the Rules Forum we try to clarify what RAW is talking about using other parts of RAW and people's personal opinion and observations. Then you get Advice.
Some people like an Appeal to Authority and so you can search Designer's posted opinions on a rule. PFS (Paizo official Organized Play campaign) created a bunch of rules(bans mostly) to corral the game into a balanced generic close to RAW setting. IMO PFS is a great staring base for a home game where you can bring back some details (like crafting) as most of the hard work is done and the rules are online.

Back to your Question:
A buff/bonus/penalty that affects crafting must maintain its effect for the crafting (usually 8 hrs). If it takes 3 days to craft with one roll - that's 3 days duration. For this reason most spells are a "No" as their duration isn't long enough.
Some GMs in the case of a 1 day(8hr) bonus/penalty would force daily crafting checks (as it is like an interruption, which is a penalty in and of itself) and may slow down crafting to half progress with possibly some component replacement costs. Some GMs eschew that level of detail or a minor effect and handwaive based on "doesn't last long enough so we ignore the effect".

You usually use $1000/d as a magic item crafting rate. Feats and specific descriptions can vary it.
Magic Item Creation on d20
For Leshy Mulch Manual $800-3600 (two methods) see monster entry Leshy for more details.
same for your other item, see the monster as named in the item's description. In general, activating a magic item is a standard action. Summonings are usually a full round action.

my comments on Tears to Wine

If you need Advice - see the Advice Forum.

Visualization of the Mind:T2 cast:1hr, Comp:$200, Efct: +5 bonus on ability checks and skill checks associated with that ability score plus one effect for 1 min.
This spell would force you to do Intermittent Creation (4-hour blocks) as it cuts into your 8hr work day.
see Magic Item Creation
... Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted.
see also Craft Construct

see Crafter's Fortune:T1, Crafter's Curse:T1, Beloved of the Forge:D2, Arcane Reinforcement:T3.

Why couldn't visualization of the mind be cast outside of the 8 hour crafting period? Does casting one spell require the "while adventuring" clause to be invoked?

Why couldn't visualization of the mind be cast outside of the 8 hour crafting period? Does casting one spell require the "while adventuring" clause to be invoked?

If the crafter is doing the casting, by RAW yes it forces the crafter into Accelerated or Intermittent crafting (only 8hrs in a day for adventuring, crafting, etc). I think many GMs will cut you a bit of slack, like 3-5 rounds, but not an entire hour.

See the last spells in my previous post.
There are also magic items that assist crafting and masterwork tools.

Where is it written that the crafter cannot cast other spells? The only reference I can find to what can or cannot be done in the off hours is "caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit." (Quoted from your earlier post)

Along the same line, do you have a reference for your claim that any buffs must last the entirety of each crafting day?

see Magic Item Creation on d20 I'd read the section including the quote and take it in context. hopefully d20 text matches the CRB WFW
Tasks are mutually exclusive. It's has historically been that way for 30+ years (so I'm really surprised to hear you say that). It is also well known, so I'll point you at other Rules Forum posts in the past.
PF1 RAW provides methods for Accelerated and Intermittent creation/crafting. Yes, people have been griping about the 8 hr day for a long time over various editions so I'm not going to address what is well accepted as a limitation.

FWIW CRB FAQ: Crafting and Spell Requirements ... If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll). which shows that 1)using the spell (and casting time) in the requirements is subsumed in the crafting time. 2)failing to have the spell creates a failure for the day which results in no progress. 3) A 'crafting' day is 8 hrs.
There is no mention of doing other things within the 8 hour day.
I believe the resting rules may go into more detail.

There are the Downtime rules and those average progress in a high level method. That is a different process.

I could look up the bonus in RAW/FAQs, I know it's there for PFS but that is not general RAW. *not finding anything at the moment*

I definitely disagree with the interpretation that the rules require anyone casting spells in the non crafting time to use the crafting while adventuring subset of rules (4 hour blocks of time and 2 hours of progress for each 4 hr block).

it literally states:...."the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit."

and casting a spell at the character's home should not (IMO) count as adventuring.

VOTB grants the caster an untyped +5 bonus to a single mental ability checks /skill checks for 24 hours.

IMO there is no doubt it can be used to modify spellcraft crafting checks since you only need to retain the bonus for the 8hours each day you are crafting (again in my opinion).

it's mind-blowing to me how people discuss things in this forum like they are some kind of singular authority and ignore that a huge percentage of players of pf1 are not that far from me and have been playing rpgs since the late 70s (or early 80s) with 40+ years of experience.

Point take that this may have been better in the advice forum rather than rules questions.

still no guidance text for assessing the CL of an item, nor any offer of an alternative spell strategy (except the one insisting it is all but impossible, which, obviously, I reject - while at the same time respect everyone's right to their opinions)

Commentary
the trick is I have to support RAW "as is" in the Rules Forum. There's also the dichotomy of what RAW says and what many people do at the table (common practice) and that reflects a common interpretation by the players & GMs.
I also share some historical views as there is a long history and different versions of the game that share common themes & mechanics. I think it's also reasonable to give some practical advice (like a GM allowing a couple of rounds of casting).

RAW can be impractical and a GM is required.

determining the Caster Level of an item is addressed within RAW in several ways. Check the Requirements; There should be caster level and spells listed. There's also Aura, Price, the original Craft Feat. Some items have sloppy write-ups.
For the Leshy Manual:
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), plant growth:T3@5th, summon nature's ally III:C3@5th(to be through I'd check the monster HD to see if it exceeds SumNtrlAlly 3); Cost 1,250 gp (fungus lechy:2HD CR2), 750 gp (gourd leshy:1HD CR1), 500 gp (leaf leshy:1HD CR0.5), 2,250 gp (seaweed leshy:4HD CR3, a "4th Lvl alternative" which would normally be 4@7th). So the maximum listed is CL=5 or CL7 for seaweed leshy.
There is the "+3 competence bonus on skill check" but the cost is low and minimum crafter CL is 3.
So based on the above I'd have to say CL=5 & 7(seaweed leshy version).

Azothath: nothing I can find in your quotes or links you supplied supports your statements. Please do not invent rules in the rules forum.

I've been gaming for 43 years, I learned how to guesstimate a long time ago. I was asking if there was any text (impliedly in 1st party sources) relating to wondrous items - maybe an faq or some obscure passage in ultimate magic or arcane anthology or an AP or scenario - for some examples

pricing methods for wondrous items are covered in detail in table 15-29 on page 550 of the crb.

the only other guidance I'm aware of that applies to CL applies to item creation generally, this passage from page 549:

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. ...

but note that for magic armour, the text provides additional direction specifically related to CL:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

the magic weapon text is essentially the same text but substituting weapon for armour

potions and scrolls and wands are less open to variances

the section on rods has no CL guidance or directives

but staves comes with a directive that they cannot be lower than CL 8

Wondrous items, being the most varied, are the most in need of guidance but also provide nothing in addition to the text from page 549 quoted above.

there are multitudes of examples that would buck any rule of thumb as simple as Min =min CL of highest spell in requirements, i already gave two.... but i was just wondering if Paizo spewed out some text somewhere like they did for most other types of items.

AoN usually updates their listings with eratta.
The source, PPC:Faiths & Philosophies 2013 has been out a long time. As a PPC it was not likely to get any updates nor an FAQ. No mention of "mulch" in item's Product or Reviews.
PFS Addt'l Resources, "Equipment: all items on pages 30–31 are legal for play except leshy mulch manual and tome of heretical revelation;" and there's nothing in Campgn Clarifications.
AP #28 Council of Thieves 2009 is in the same boat. IMO worse as Create Undead:N6@11 scroll is $1650 +$400(8HD) with some GM caveat(creature not on approved list) and single use, use activited would be $50*SplLvl*CstrLvl but then there's the matl:onyx $400... No control with Undead and may be why duration is only 1 hr. Who knows...

see Magic Item Creation on d20 I'd read the section including the quote and take it in context. hopefully d20 text matches the CRB WFW

Tasks are mutually exclusive. It's has historically been that way for 30+ years (so I'm really surprised to hear you say that). It is also well known, so I'll point you at other Rules Forum posts in the past.
PF1 RAW provides methods for Accelerated and Intermittent creation/crafting. Yes, people have been griping about the 8 hr day for a long time over various editions so I'm not going to address what is well accepted as a limitation.

FWIW CRB FAQ: Crafting and Spell Requirements ... If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll). which shows that 1)using the spell (and casting time) in the requirements is subsumed in the crafting time. 2)failing to have the spell creates a failure for the day which results in no progress. 3) A 'crafting' day is 8 hrs.
There is no mention of doing other things within the 8 hour day.
I believe the resting rules may go into more detail.

There are the Downtime rules and those average progress in a high level method. That is a different process.

I could look up the bonus in RAW/FAQs, I know it's there for PFS but that is not general RAW. *not finding anything at the moment*

You say that tasks are mutually exclusive, and then give an example where the caster does a task that isn't part of the normal enchanting process (using UMD) without any drawback (besides the risk of failing to use the scroll).

Enchanting while adventuring is different from [io]casting a spell while enchanting[/i]. I suppose that our caster, while enchanting, will take biological breaks, will take time to drink and eat, and will do all other things related to a normal life.

To me, your reasoning seems similar to the people that say "You can't take 10 in a skill if failure has negative consequences as you are in danger doing that."

So to reply to the first question of the OP, as I see it, if you can cast a spell enough times in a day that it covers the full duration of the enchanting process, and repeat that procedure for all the days you spend enchanting, you get the benefits of the spell.

For the second:

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than

her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

Both of those statements contradict items published in the CRB, that have lower caster levels than those required to cast the spell cited in the requirements.

A typical example is the Goggles of Minute Seeing, which have a CL of 3. They require True Seeing, a 5th-level spell for a cleric, and a 6th-level spell for a wizard.

My opinion (and it is an opinion, not a printed rule), is that you need to have the required level to cast the spell shown in the requirements and that the item needs to have that CL only if the item: a) cast the spell (like a scroll of several rings), of b) if the item effect clearly mimics the effect of the spell (like a Gem of Seeing).
Plenty of items, like the aforementioned Goggles of Minute Seeing, have effects that are very loosely related to the required spells. Simply, the Developers (both in the 3.x and Pathfinder versions of the game) were unable to find spells more appropriate for the final effect.

So, in my home games, I select the CL of custom items as appropriate for the effect, not on the basis of the spell used to craft the item, and for printed items, I generally use the CL shown in the rules, even if inappropriate for the spell in the requirement.

It requires a bit of work, but, to mee, it seems more coherent.

pricing methods for wondrous items are covered in detail in table 15-29 on page 550 of the crb.

About those "pricing methods":

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items in the Core Rulebook (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values on page 549 of the Core Rulebook), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per

day of a spell effect from the “command word” or “use activated or continuous” lines of Table 15–29 on page 550 of Core Rulebook.

As you say, you have experience eyeballing the price, so I think you will not have problems with people trying to make a T-shirt of Mage Armor, but some people have them, so it is better to put up a reminder about the limits of that table.

BTW, it appears that both old, grumpy dwarves started playing in the late '70. LOL.

...

So to reply to the first question of the OP, as I see it, if you can cast a spell enough times in a day that it covers the full duration of the enchanting process, and repeat that procedure for all the days you spend enchanting, you get the benefits of the spell.

I agree with this. Visualization can be cast well outside the 8 hour crafting window so doesn't rely on this interpretation but i think if you could get 8 castings of tears to wine @CL 6 it *should* also work - just maybe not how some could reasonably interpret the 8 hour crafting period's permissible activities.

the sentence in the crafting section:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth of work.

makes it explicit that any other downtime activities (outside the 8 hr period) other than being "out adventuring", are permitted while crafting.

pricing does also have its issues...the sword of truestrike seems like the very most abusive example... but yeah i think i can handle pricing and eyeballing Caster level..... i just wondered if there was a small block of text i might have missed.

it appears that 40 years is the sort of time period that makes it very hard to respond to questions with "no i don't think so" and avoiding indulging the urge to be pedantic.